Rose Tyler & Jo Grant

[carmen_lj]

Sometimes I do things I really shouldn't, and one of those things is go read journals of people that I know perfectly well I disagree with.

This is what I want to say but, obviously do not: old skool fans do not hate the fact that the Doctor clearly loves Rose, indeed, if you head over to the OG you will see that many, many fans love the fact that it's so obvious. No, what annoys a fair few old skool fans is your Mad Insistence that the Doctor never loved any companion before Rose because he thought of them like cats and thus you happily dismiss all relationships the Doctor has had in the past nine hundred years because they were clearly meaningless and rubbish and STOP DOING THIS.

Anyway, the actual thing I wanted to talk about (and anything daft I might say can be blamed on the fact that, no, I haven't slept) was why, though I prefer series two to series one overall, I much prefer Rose's relationship to the Doctor in series one. Mainly, I think, this is because I see her relationship with Nine as being a far, far healthier one than her relationship with Ten.

Because the main problem that I have with series two is Rose's almost worshipful attitude towards the Doctor: she seems to imitate his attitudes, she doesn't question him any more, and she has complete faith that the Doctor will Find A Way. And that's a bit creepy, and unusual, because most every other companion that the Doctor has had will challenge him when they feel that he's done something stupid/gone too far/missing the point, no matter how good and comfortable their relationship with him has become. I assume the fact that Rose doesn't do this is meant to signal their relationship Developing, but to me, it's gone from a relationship of equals (um, sort of) to one of hero worship and the Doctor really keen to protect his worshipper from harm.

There is, however, one particular old skool companion who, I feel, does have a very similar relationship to the Doctor (though it doesn't Concern Me half so much): Jo Grant who, incidently, has one of the best (albeit, I imagine, not intentional) character arcs in the old series. She comes in inexperienced, naive and incompetant, managing to get herself caught and hypnotised into trying to blow up the Doctor within her first episode, but we see her gain confidence over her three years in the show, and some sense. We see her frightened first steps on an alien world develop into her traipsing about the universe with the Doctor without a word of complaint. And her skills? Lock-picking and being able to untie ropes when the plot calls for it. And that's it. But she is very lovable. (Though she did save the universe once [on purpose], and the Earth once [accidently])

But Jo starts out a bit useless, and ends up a bit less useless. Rose starts out as an independant, determined, questioning young woman and ends up following the Doctor's lead on everything, more or less. And that's why one character arc, I'm okay with, and the other, I'm not so much.

And there's a lot of similarities between Jo and Rose: Jo pretty much goes along with whatever the Doctor says and has complete faith that he's right and that he knows what he's doing. The few times Rose does challenge the Doctor in series two, it's regarding his rudeness, and the only times Jo challenges the Doctor is to point out when he's been abrupt or dismissive of others (both directly, and more subtly - she takes over when she feels he's getting nowhere asking questions of difficult people.) Rose makes the decision to stay in the real world, cutting herself off from her family, so she can stay with the Doctor, and Jo makes a similiar choice when she says she wants to stay with the Doctor, trapped in an antimatter universe, rather than go back home to Earth. The Doctor actually has to think about whether he'd rather save the Earth and maybe have Rose die, than forget about the Earth and, still, Rose probably dies (or, he doesn't want to be the one responsible for her death) and the Doctor, faced with Universal Armageddon or Having to Kill Jo, picks the former and it's up to Jo to try and kill herself and thus save the universe.

And Jo gets some of the shippiest old skool stuff from the Doctor, with him offering her all the time and space in the world, cause, yeah, if that'd been in the new show, there's no way it wouldn't be seen as an Incredibly Shippy moment, and Jo turning him down to go marry a man who reminds her of a younger Doctor.

So, yes, Rose, to me, is like Jo with a Tragic Ending (Jo grows and learns from her experiences, Rose seems to at first and then it becomes less about The Universe and more about The Doctor - this, btw, is why I think the Doctor asked her how long she was going to stay with him, and because she said "forever" he knew he was going to have to leave her for her own good.) And given that Jo was, kinda deliberately, meant to be rubbish after the brilliant and competent Liz, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Rose having the qualities the Production Team want us to think she had. Because I'm pretty sure the writers weren't setting out to make her seem kinda useless, but she does get locked up/get her face eaten/get taken over/get rescued by someone else kind of often. And her Specialness doesn't come across objectively, but from people around her not acknowledging that She's A Bit Useless and, instead, declaring how much they love her. Jo was loved in much the same way, but her incompetence was also pointed out (frequently).

Yes, right, so what I'm saying is, out of the old skool companions, the one I think is most like series 2 Rose is Jo Grant. Which I find a bit strange really.

Thing is, none of this is meant as a condemnation of Rose. I like her (like Jo too), she's a good character, but I'm finding the notorious She Are So Special arguments becoming ever less convincing the more I think about this. (Not that I ever thought they were convincing, but now I'm finding them just plain daft.)

In conclusion, Jo is great and I should have an icon of her.

And in other parts of the Whoniverse, dwicons has just gone over 1000 members. Dude. That's scary.

Comments

[rpgamera.livejournal.com]

Wow. You just summarized why I like the Nine/Rose relationship far better than the Ten/Rose relationship in much better language than I could have. Thank you. *smirk*

[jekesta]

Yes, this is very true. Not the bits about jo, they might be true, I don't know. But we watched a bit with the ninth doctor in it the other day, and she was better with him, and the tenth doctor she was much more awful with and yes. I think that is true.

Dammit, you have 1002 members, my defriending is not worth a damn!!!! ::shakes fist:: Not scary so much as super! Yay:)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

No, what annoys a fair few old skool fans is your Mad Insistence that the Doctor never loved any companion before Rose because he thought of them like cats and thus you happily dismiss all relationships the Doctor has had in the past nine hundred years because they were clearly meaningless and rubbish and STOP DOING THIS

Not to mention insisting that he will NEVER EVER LOVE ANYONE THE WAY HE LURVED ROSE (always expressed in emotional if not actual caps) - nevermind that even when Rose was *right there* he flirted with Jabe, tried to kiss Lynda, and got smitten with Reinette.

Right with you on the hero worship. I agree with nostalgia_lj who kept pointing out that the only times in S2 that Rose got strong and smart again were when the Doctor wasn't there. Which means that their relationship was warping into something a bit sad instead of continuing on from the strengths in S1.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

I've thought from the beginning that Rose was rather Jo-like. The same sort of charming, fashionable, bubbly blond without much in the way of real-world skills, but the occasional random thing that pops up usefully (lockpicking when it's needed, under-sevens gymnastics when it's needed, and neither ever again), and sort of attached at the hip to the Doctor. And S2 was significantly less functional than S1; painfully so, at times.

And I do agree that the She's So Special arguments do suffer somewhat when the companion Rose is most like is the Intentionally Rather Rubbish One. That sort of ranges from funny to insulting-to-women-who-aren't-rubbish, depending on the tenor of the argument.

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

Well said. Very well said.

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, that's really interesting. I kept having these niggly feelings that the Rose/Doctor relationship all went A Bit Wrong in series 2, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why. Because I liked Rose a lot, and at the end of series 1, I'd have hated the thought of her leaving. But when she actually did leave, I just though, hmm... probably all for the best. It's a bit disappointing really, although there's lots I liked about series 2. But that coloured it for me, a bit.

I was just thinking though, the reason I found The Parting of the Ways emotionally affecting was because it was about Rose, actually thinking for herself, about how she wanted to live her life - realising that she wanted to do things and make things better. And by the end of series 2, it wasn't about that any more, it was about following the Doctor around wherever he went. So I rather breathed a sigh of relief when it was all over -- now she can go off and do interesting things on her own.

As for the Doctor, silly boy - he'll be perfectly all right by next Tuesday. I hope Martha is cantankerous, difficult, headstrong and other words like that.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

journals of people that I know perfectly well I disagree with.

Every time people say that I THINK THEY MEAN ME. *paranoid*


you happily dismiss all relationships the Doctor has had in the past nine hundred years because they were clearly meaningless and rubbish and STOP DOING THIS.

*cry*


she doesn't question him any more

One time I read fic about how Only Rose ever questions the Doctor and I was like "...no." cos even AT MY MOST KIND, it is a thing that she conspicuously doesn't do. Consider it good or bad or whatever, but she is not notable for her swiftyness to disagree with him.


I assume the fact that Rose doesn't do this is meant to signal their relationship Developing, but to me, it's gone from a relationship of equals (um, sort of) to one of hero worship and the Doctor really keen to protect his worshipper from harm.

I started out thinking Ten/Rose might lose the neediness and feel healthier, but omg it just got too lacking in conflict. And that is worrying when he is like Powerful And Such.

So, yes, Rose, to me, is like Jo with a Tragic Ending

Oh, Rose is totally a Jo-type (and I say this with affection for Jo, dammit). Quite passive in some ways, generally inoffensive, fair bit of hero-worship going on. Likeable enough if not anything special or amazing. Bit useless. Blonde.


And given that Jo was, kinda deliberately, meant to be rubbish after the brilliant and competent Liz, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Rose having the qualities the Production Team want us to think she had.

*more cries*


Thing is, none of this is meant as a condemnation of Rose. I like her (like Jo too), she's a good character, but I'm finding the notorious She Are So Special arguments becoming ever less convincing the more I think about this. (Not that I ever thought they were convincing, but now I'm finding them just plain daft.)

Yeah, the She Are So Special was just... insane, really. I think it maybe are true that Rose would be edging into Quite Special if she were on her own show, but for the universe she exists in there is not much to recommend her above other people. (Which is why the One True Love thing really makes NO SENSE to me. I has tried, honest, but I can't reconcile her non-specialness with the idea that she is Just That Good and so clearly the Doctor would be in love with her. As one of many, she just about works for me, but as unqiue? No, that are not making of the any sense to me. Woes.) Also, she cried a lot and Jo would totally have cried that much if they had let her.

[gwynnega]

Yes, I think that's why I preferred Nine/Rose to Ten/Rose. And you're right about the Rose-Jo similarities...

[eido.livejournal.com]

Jo grows and learns from her experiences, Rose seems to at first and then it becomes less about The Universe and more about The Doctor

To the point the decision to leave The Doctor was taken entirely out of her hands. They make her let go because she couldn't make that decision herself. She was incapable of it. Which is the saddest thing to me. She had no perspective when it came to The Doctor. As I see things, Pete saved her from The Void, but I also saw The Void as a metaphor for that notion of "forever". There was apparently no place in Rose that could see the not-so-shiny side of that notion. Like she's willingly lined up for the concrete slab metamorphesis. She hasn't even considered it as a negative - something someone might not want even for the sake of Teh Great Love - because The Doctor will Find A Way. However, there was also Sarah Jane, Reinette, Ursula either nostalgic, longing for (or actually facing) the "forever". Of the three of them, Sarah Jane had the happiest ending (she realized the need for everything ending and she walked away of her own volition. She had perspective). If you're expecting The Doctor to help you there, it's not always a guarantee. I'd like to think he would have spared Rose that fate, somehow, at least (he sent her away first in "Doomsday", but then couldn't do it a second time)... but he also had a habit of indulging her. There is that danger of him willingly making you a concrete slab... unless you say no or he's impeded somehow (in Rose's case, by dimension-hopping Alt!Pete).

Although I actually thought Rose had progression (not unlike Jo's) in S1, but discussing Rose S1 vs S2 with a friend... we almost see Rose as regressing, almost unnaturally, post-POTW. Friend believes The Doctor did something to Rose in POTW after removing the Time Vortex. Almost like he reset her or something. Not sure if there's anything to it, but considering the differences between S1 and S2 Rose, I could buy it. Almost like she got beyond anything anyone could ever go (the Bad Wolf goddess. Like seeing Cupid's face and eventually raising to Olympus... after Venus' trials anyway), so there was no place for her to go but back to the beginning, but the second time around there was no Olympus. Thus Rose had her own sort of regen (or reincarnation), but in a way that regained / recreated that childish naivete or innocence (after facing the immense burden of knowledge of Bad Wolf) but with a different (tragic) end ... including Veruca Salt tendencies of an only child. Yet after his regen, The Doctor is still The Doctor... more manic and a prettier, younger face (that pretty, shiny red apple... or a prettier one anyway and all the more tempting), but all the older and less merciful (I wonder if The Doctor even knows the full extent of how unmerciful he could be? Or when he tries to bring mercy, he brings misery instead... because I just don't see what he did to Ursula - and through her, Warren - as an act of mercy).

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

This simply makes me want to watch Jo episodes (who, sadly, was far more useful than Rose). *uses the wrong Jo icon, as she has no correct Jo icons uploaded*

[snowgrouse.livejournal.com]

...exactly. That's how I feel myself. Thanks for summing it up better than I could:).

And w00t to 1000 members. BLOODY HELL.

[padawanpooh.livejournal.com]

If Rose was Jo Grant (which I 95% agree with) I want Martha to be Ace....strop, calling the Doctor on screw-ups but loving him (in a most probably platonic way) really.