carmen_lj: (martha - black and white)
[personal profile] carmen_lj
I've never been very happy with the Doctor = Jesus comparison (if only because Martha = Jesus, the Son, Doctor = God, the Father, if you're going that way really) because it's casting the Doctor in a role that he's never really been in, and I sure as heck don't want to retcon him in my head into that role. He's the trickster-god, Loki, Seth, Odysseus (er, yeah, I know he's not actually a god, but he's very Doctor-like, yes.) Even if you're arguing a fundamental character change based on the Time War, he might see himself as the ultimate authority, but I'm not comfy with the text agreeing with that and I don't think it does.

The reason, with LotTL anyway, relies on looking at specifics rather than the general trend of events in the finale. Particularly the fact that in order for the Doctor to do the rising again and saving the world from Satan thing, he is reliant on the power of others. Jesus rose from the grave all by himself, who he was and the power he had was not a matter of the faith that others had in him. Their faith would save them, but Jesus was the Son of God no matter what anyone else believed and he would have risen on the third day whatever. He healed, and those whom he healed often only believed after he had healed them, not before. ("You're the Son of God, eh? Prove it.")

Now, the Doctor can do nothing himself, he's pretty much impotent from the moment he's aged. Who's got the power (for good) here? It's Martha, and those she can inspire. So rather than casting the piece as religious allegory, I'd rather go for a fairy-tale, where, for instance, the prince has been cursed (as, indeed, has the kingdom itself) by an evil wizard and it's up to the princess to rescue him and lead the kingdom's revolution. Or how about the Doctor as Merlin, cast into the ice caves by Morgaine, and only able to use his powers to defeat her once he's rescued by his apprentice who's learned enough of his arts (that would be saving the day) to free him.

And it's a thematic continuation of the last time Martha saved the world, in tSC, where she did it with a word, creating the spell that vanquished the evil. Here, she teaches another word, just as powerful, but the quest is infinitely more difficult. (Never mind the whole apprentice Doctor/medical student thing that fandom's been discussing since we knew about it.)

And if I hear one more time about her doing this because she loved the Doctor or some such nonsense, I'll... well, I'll huff a bit. Because, ffs, it's her planet, her people, her family, her friends and everything and everyone she's ever known, prior to TARDIS-adventuring. She couldn't possibly have another reason for trying to save it other than hoping for a quick shag with the Doctor afterwards.

I'm sure she loves the Doctor very much (and, certainly, by the end, when she's telling her story, I felt as though it was in a non-romantic sense, but rather she loved him as the mentor whose courage, intelligence, tenacity and skill had taught her and kept her going throughout her practically impossible quest to save the world with an utterly mad plan) but she's busy doing what the Doctor couldn't: she's saving her homeworld. And given how the entire series has been about how losing his planet and people affected the Doctor, and shows us just how close he comes to truly terrible things for the chance to get them back, you'd think it'd be obvious what was actually driving Martha on.

So, yeah, mostly I'm all for looking at the finale in terms of a heroic quest in classical mythology or a fairy-tale, rather than in terms of Christian theology, which, for me, doesn't work because of what forty years of Doctor Who stories have told me about who the Doctor is.

That was my thought.

Date: 2007-08-23 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com
1. As you probably saw in that entry of Nos's, I'm entirely serious that Doctor = Loki, Rose = Frigg and Martha = Freya. Doubtless this somehow oppresses every character involved, but hey, I gotta be me. (Also re the Doctor, let us never forget that Loki's real sin in the eyes of the gods was laying bare all their hypocrises for the world to see...shades of old Gallifrey, I say. Crap, this may mean that Romana = Balder. That poor woman has no luck.)

2. Well, they have to dismiss it, otherwise it fatally compromises the Rose > every companion ever equation and we simply can't have that, now can we.

Date: 2007-08-23 11:59 pm (UTC)
ext_17485: (Default)
From: [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com
1 - I choose to believe versions that do not mention Loki in the killing of Balder then, woe.

Date: 2007-08-24 12:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com
1. It works, though, doesn't it? That's the creepy part. Even works if you're a batshit Doctor/Romana 'shipper like me, considering that Balder was killed by a mistletoe arrow.

Date: 2007-08-24 12:22 am (UTC)
ext_17485: (ship - romana/ten)
From: [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com
But it makes me all sad!
Oh, Doctor and Romana, skipping round wee meadows with lovely flowers, tralalalal *denial*

Date: 2007-08-24 12:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com
I just said it worked, not that I wanted it to work. *whisks both characters off to Paris where it's safe*

Date: 2007-08-24 01:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com
no, no - it's okay. (batshit lokean time, hurrah!)

see, loki has to kill baldur so that baldur's in helheim during ragnarok, thus allowing baldur to come back after ragnarok and be a god again for the children of lif and lifthrasir.

admittedly, in this analogy i'm not quite clear on how we get romana-baldur out of helheim. but i will happily leave the logistics on that to someone else. the point is that we totally do get romana-baldur back and that the doctor-loki's killing her was important and possibly beneficial.

[/possibly annoying minority heathenry]

Date: 2007-08-24 01:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melengro.livejournal.com
Hello. This post makes you a genius. I should like to friend you.
Oh, and Helheim=Hell=The Void, which leads me back to that weird Void-ship thing that Romana is in at the end of the 'Gallifrey' audios.

Date: 2007-08-24 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com
hurrah! my obsessive interest in norse mythology is finally good for something. 8)

Date: 2007-08-24 02:05 pm (UTC)
ext_17485: (Default)
From: [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com
Ahh, helheim is the Void, obv, which is all dark and scary and such, and she was sent their by the Doctor's actions, so it's more a metaphorical killing.

Date: 2007-08-24 02:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com
oh, good.

and apparently i should listen to the gallifrey audios.

Date: 2007-08-24 02:34 pm (UTC)
ext_17485: (romana  - smiling)
From: [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com
And why haven't you?

Date: 2007-08-24 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com
because one can't do everything at once? canon is very large, after all.

::goes off to shuffle the contents of the mp3 player::

Date: 2007-08-24 02:46 pm (UTC)
ext_17485: (brig - with sunglasses!)
From: [identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com
Poor old canon! Blamed again!

Date: 2007-08-24 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prof-pangaea.livejournal.com
if only to enjoy the UTTER AWESOME that is irving braxiatel!!

Date: 2007-08-25 09:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melengro.livejournal.com
BRAX FTW.

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