Guns kill people

[carmen_lj]

On another topic: America, it's the guns. You have all those mass shootings because you are in a special class of your own when it comes to private gun ownership. No, you are not comparable to Finland or Switzerland. They, yes, do have very high private gun ownership compared to the rest of the world but not compared to you. You are unique, pejoratively.

This is, of course, self-evident to anyone who is not a complete fuckwit, and much to my horror those included here in the 'not a fuckwit' category are Piers Morgan. Basically, if you're saying it's not the guns, you are worse than Piers Morgan. Ye gods.

I bring this up because I'm not *entirely* thrilled with the mental illness and violent video game rhetoric I'm seeing where those two things are being touted as causes of gun violence. Both because of common sense and because, heh, I'm a mentally ill person who's been playing violent video games since I was three years old. Weirdly, I have no desire to shoot anyone. And even if I did, I couldn't. Why? Because we don't have fucking ridiculous amounts of guns in private ownership in the UK. (We have, actually, about one fiftieth of the gun violence you do, and, yes, that is taking into account our population difference.)

It's the guns that are killing people. Yes, guns kill people. There is, bizarrely, a reason gunpowder supplanted pointy metal sticks on the battlefield: guns kill more people, faster. America has more guns in private ownership than anywhere else in the world. Therefore more people will die of guns.

You want to decide, as a society, that owning your absurd amounts and varieties of guns is more important than your kids not dying of guns? Fine. Actually, it's not fine, it's disgusting. But it's your fucked-up choice. Stop lying about it though. Guns kill people. Not video games, not mental illness, not bad parenting, not any of the other desperate excuses I've been reading: it's the guns.

Comments

[sabotabby]

I bring this up because I'm not *entirely* thrilled with the mental illness and violent video game rhetoric I'm seeing where those two things are being touted as causes of gun violence. Both because of common sense and because, heh, I'm a mentally ill person who's been playing violent video games since I was three years old. Weirdly, I have no desire to shoot anyone. And even if I did, I couldn't. Why? Because we don't have fucking ridiculous amounts of guns in private ownership in the UK. (We have, actually, about one fiftieth of the gun violence you do, and, yes, that is taking into account our population difference.)

The mental illness rate is very high everywhere.

I work with hundreds of kids a year and all but a handful of weirdos play violent video games.

If mental illness + violent video games = mass shootings, there would be no one left standing in my school.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

If you just keep talking about anything vaguely plausible that isn''t better gun regulation maybe all the nasty people who don't like mass killings will just STFU.

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

I mean, if they want to factor mental illness into it and still make any kind of sense, they'd have to factor in specific mental illnesses that are prone to violence and also keep in mind a culture that is obsessed with violence (and how that could maybe contribute to a person's mental condition), of which video games are just one manifestation but a much more relevant manifestation being ALL THE FUCKING GUNS and the attitude that prioritizes guns over safety.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

QUITE. With the "specific mental illness" thing. I keep reading mental illness and it's like WHAT ONE?! because not actually one big homogenous lump of stuff but very complicated.

But, really, the average mentalness (to use a scientific term) of a country has kind of a lot less to do with gun violence than easy and not terribly well regulated access to private guns.

[sabra-n.livejournal.com]

Gun ownership in the US is actually declining, but the most ardent chunk of those owners own more guns. Like, ridiculous numbers of guns (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/index.html). The NRA and other paranoia-mongers make their money telling this relatively small chunk of people that their guns are going to be taken away from them by the government, that some unspecified catastrophe is coming, that the only solution is to stock up on more guns. Then they throw out more smoke and mirrors to pretend they represent some majority of the population in order to use that "leverage" on politicians, which...push comes to shove, there's a fair chance that leverage isn't quite so powerful.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

I don't think they represent the majority of Americans, but I can't see anything to suggest their leverage isn't awfully powerful. Bans on assault weapons are allowed to expire, the only amendment to the US Constituion that seems sacrosanct is the second, all the others up for debate, because their laxness is the *real* cause of gun violence, and the shootings go on.

[sabra-n.livejournal.com]

I think they haven't been tested in a long time, not really.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

I hope they are, I do so hope they are.

[sabra-n.livejournal.com]

What kind of kills me is that it takes mass shootings - usually involving mostly white people - for this kind of conversation to even happen, when in, say, Philadelphia, an amazing town, black people have been killing each other with guns for years and the local government couldn't do anything to control handguns because those powers are allocated to the state government, which is full of representatives who think that handguns are somehow really vital to the hunters in the middle of the state. They can't even pass a "one handgun per month" rule because of these asshats.

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

And even after the mass shootings of white people it can be pretty much assured that a big whiny deal will be made out of regulation and we won't get anywhere. Which, of course, won't even matter 'cause it's usually black people dying! Ugh.

[eve11]

There's a good article here on the sociology and specific signs of a mass killer: http://sociological-eye.blogspot.com/2012/09/clues-to-mass-rampage-killers-deep.html

Violent video games are a fantasy and most people can and do separate fantasy from reality (even in the kinds of violence that is done in fanfic for example). "Mental illness" is a stupid catch-all phrase for the specific kind of headspace that it seems to take to be a mass killer of that kind. Other kinds of mental illness? They say that a suicidal person is the hardest to deal with b/c if their life doesn't matter, then nobody else's does either. But that's a simplification too. I lost an extended family member to gun suicide and he was never a danger to anyone except himself, or at least not manifestly so. And the problem of gun violence in the US is more than just mass killings, so restricting it to just saying "how do we stop these" is itself a compromise.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

They say that a suicidal person is the hardest to deal with b/c if their life doesn't matter, then nobody else's does either.

That's well, I would disagree with that, to put it lightly. One can be in the most horrible pain (mental or physical), hold their own life in no regard and seek to end it, whilst still loving and caring for others.

And the problem of gun violence in the US is more than just mass killings, so restricting it to just saying "how do we stop these" is itself a compromise.

Indeed, but the intense public reaction to mass killings tends to put gun regulation on the political agenda and can lead to change where a single death would be glossed over.

And the answer to both, as far as I'm concerned, is better gun regulation.

[eve11]

That's well, I would disagree with that, to put it lightly.

Yeah, I disagree with it too. I heard it and was like, "well that's not right" unless it's the kind of thing with like, suicide bombers. Which isn't mental illness but indoctrination. ETA: grr, sorry, I'm not being very articulate. :(

[calapine.livejournal.com]

No worries - I got that you disagree - it's one of those things that push such a button, I must add my own disagreement to the pile because arg.

[davidbrider.livejournal.com]

I think this post may win the "most common sense ever posted on the internet" award. Thank you for saying this. I don't know if it will have any actual effect, but thank you for saying it. Oh, and...

...heh, I'm a mentally ill person who's been playing violent video games since I was three years old.

Totally. Although I was a bit older when I started on the video games front...

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

I was in high school when the school shooting thing became incredibly widespread, and I remember all of the fuss about the gamers and the Goth kids and kids who took psych meds and kids who had black trenchcoats and I am very, very tired of it.

(There was a shooting at one of the other high schools in my district, and...it was just all kinds of badness. And I was miles away from the actual shooting. Just stop, please.)

And I am getting increasingly fed up with the people who keep going into internet comment sections and arguing that restricting firearm ownership is not a perfect solution, so therefore it's not worth trying. An imperfect solution that's partially succesful will result in fewer dead kids, and that's a pretty good starting point.

[starmalachite.livejournal.com]

Sadly, my own father & many of my relatives are firmly convinced that Obama (or any Democratic president, but especially him) is intent on coming for their guns. Logic, reason & experience make no dent whatever in the wall of paranoia.

OTOH, he's been saying it lately in a rather forlorn way, as if he's trying to convince himself more than anyone else. I hate to think what our next encounter will be like if reality shores up his delusion in the slightest. But that's a price I'd be more than willing to pay for saner gun regulations.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

When this country was founded, there was a need for a "well-armed militia". I don't that is very true anymore.

I hope this country finds a solution to this mess. The founding fathers did not know everything when they set down the constitution but the gun owners continually point to that blasted second amendment. Personally I feel it was the single largest mistake every conceived in the writing of the constitution.

Then I saw a meme that said, "My second amendment rights trump your first amendment rights". That's the type of talk that makes me wonder about the mental health of gun owners.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

much to my horror those included here in the 'not a fuckwit' category are Piers Morgan. Basically, if you're saying it's not the guns, you are worse than Piers Morgan. Ye gods.

OMG, yes. I saw that somewhere and went, wow, Piers Morgan is worth listening to on one subject.

[tau_sigma]

and because, heh, I'm a mentally ill person who's been playing violent video games since I was three years old

Me too! Possibly not so much the video games; I guess maybe it depends what you count. But yeah: mental illness & enjoying COMPLETELY FICTIONAL violence =/= precipitating real life tragedy.

[luna-k.livejournal.com]

UGH. I don't get my country's fascination with guns. Somehow, we got it into our collective minds that owning assault rifles equals freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom and it's an essential right as Americans. The weird thing is, the NRA didn't even used to be this crazy. They started out as a marksmanship organization, focused on hunting and stuff. It's relatively recent that they've gotten into beating the Second Amendment to death, and developing this stranglehold over American politics. What really drives me crazy is that no one - well, most people - don't want to take away guns from legitimate hunters, or even take handguns away. We just want some common sense regulations. No assault rifles, no high capacity magazines. NO GUNS IN STATE CAPITOLS AND COURTHOUSES!!! Limits to how many guns you can buy - who needs to buy more than one gun a month? Mandatory background checks for everyone, every time, instead of this stupid gun show loophole.

Re: the mental illness thing. I think we need to fix our mental health system because a lot of people fall through the cracks, and a lot of people who want care can't get it. However, the thing with this case is that the shooter had a dad who made over 500k a year, and could probably afford the best therapists and psychiatrists in the country. So it's kind of a sidetrack argument here.

I will say though, that this is an especially painful topic (the broken mental health system) because a schizophrenic client stabbed another client to death at a local day treatment center I used to go to this past June. The killer simply walked into the unlocked kitchen, stole a knife, and proceeded to murder someone. How could something like this happen? It boggles my mind.

Re: the video games. I don't think any intelligent person thinks Call of Duty causes players to go on murder sprees. But the thing is, we do have a culture of violence over here. I tend to think it's more about the media's incessant lurid coverage of war atrocities, natural disasters and the latest famous crimes. In Bowling for Columbine, someone mentioned that crime had fallen so and so percent over the last decade, but the media's coverage of violent crime had increased 500%. And there's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy where with each media frezy over the latest school/mass shooting, it just inspires more copycat shootings.