carmen_lj: (martha - black and white)
carmen_lj ([personal profile] carmen_lj) wrote2007-08-23 11:10 pm

A Thought on Last of the Time Lords

I've never been very happy with the Doctor = Jesus comparison (if only because Martha = Jesus, the Son, Doctor = God, the Father, if you're going that way really) because it's casting the Doctor in a role that he's never really been in, and I sure as heck don't want to retcon him in my head into that role. He's the trickster-god, Loki, Seth, Odysseus (er, yeah, I know he's not actually a god, but he's very Doctor-like, yes.) Even if you're arguing a fundamental character change based on the Time War, he might see himself as the ultimate authority, but I'm not comfy with the text agreeing with that and I don't think it does.

The reason, with LotTL anyway, relies on looking at specifics rather than the general trend of events in the finale. Particularly the fact that in order for the Doctor to do the rising again and saving the world from Satan thing, he is reliant on the power of others. Jesus rose from the grave all by himself, who he was and the power he had was not a matter of the faith that others had in him. Their faith would save them, but Jesus was the Son of God no matter what anyone else believed and he would have risen on the third day whatever. He healed, and those whom he healed often only believed after he had healed them, not before. ("You're the Son of God, eh? Prove it.")

Now, the Doctor can do nothing himself, he's pretty much impotent from the moment he's aged. Who's got the power (for good) here? It's Martha, and those she can inspire. So rather than casting the piece as religious allegory, I'd rather go for a fairy-tale, where, for instance, the prince has been cursed (as, indeed, has the kingdom itself) by an evil wizard and it's up to the princess to rescue him and lead the kingdom's revolution. Or how about the Doctor as Merlin, cast into the ice caves by Morgaine, and only able to use his powers to defeat her once he's rescued by his apprentice who's learned enough of his arts (that would be saving the day) to free him.

And it's a thematic continuation of the last time Martha saved the world, in tSC, where she did it with a word, creating the spell that vanquished the evil. Here, she teaches another word, just as powerful, but the quest is infinitely more difficult. (Never mind the whole apprentice Doctor/medical student thing that fandom's been discussing since we knew about it.)

And if I hear one more time about her doing this because she loved the Doctor or some such nonsense, I'll... well, I'll huff a bit. Because, ffs, it's her planet, her people, her family, her friends and everything and everyone she's ever known, prior to TARDIS-adventuring. She couldn't possibly have another reason for trying to save it other than hoping for a quick shag with the Doctor afterwards.

I'm sure she loves the Doctor very much (and, certainly, by the end, when she's telling her story, I felt as though it was in a non-romantic sense, but rather she loved him as the mentor whose courage, intelligence, tenacity and skill had taught her and kept her going throughout her practically impossible quest to save the world with an utterly mad plan) but she's busy doing what the Doctor couldn't: she's saving her homeworld. And given how the entire series has been about how losing his planet and people affected the Doctor, and shows us just how close he comes to truly terrible things for the chance to get them back, you'd think it'd be obvious what was actually driving Martha on.

So, yeah, mostly I'm all for looking at the finale in terms of a heroic quest in classical mythology or a fairy-tale, rather than in terms of Christian theology, which, for me, doesn't work because of what forty years of Doctor Who stories have told me about who the Doctor is.

That was my thought.
ext_9872: (companions & friends & lovers)

[identity profile] zauberer-sirin.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 10:47 pm (UTC)(link)
And if I hear one more time about her doing this because she loved the Doctor or some such nonsense, I'll... well, I'll huff a bit.

arg, it irks me when people cheapens what Martha did that way. She did it cause she is awesome, i mean, she did for all that you said yes XD
tau_sigma: (exiled genius)

[personal profile] tau_sigma 2007-08-23 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
That was my thought.

And it is a dead interesting one. I'd like to say more, but, um, I'd end up quoting the whole thing. Because yeah, I like the way you've thought this out. It makes sense.

[identity profile] paratti.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
It is definitely more a Fisher King thing in that story.

[identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
i find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your news letter.

especially as regards the doctor = trickster god. because, hell, that's what i liked about the guy in the first place.

[identity profile] dancesontrains.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 10:59 pm (UTC)(link)
*Nods in agreement*
For an atheist, RTD is amusingly heavy handed with Teh Allegories.
Yes to the Loki types. The Doctor is what he is what he is.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:08 pm (UTC)(link)
It's like trying to take away from teh Babs' awesomeness by saying "she did it because she loved Ian." And just, no.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I had another one, but it was mostly concerning how my tea tastes like Earl Grey and I hate Earl Grey.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:15 pm (UTC)(link)
TARDIS = Doctor/Fisher King's kingdom? That could work.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
His story is v Prometheus, yes, though I see him more as a benevolent Loki.

[identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:19 pm (UTC)(link)
loki-convincing-thor-to-crossdress, possibly, as opposed to loki-randomly-killing-balder, yes. 8)
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
He's weirdly contradictory and all in TW, with Suzie's nothingness and Simon being sucked into Heaven-ish. Can't we just have a pleasant left-alone ambiguity?

Funnily the Buddhist trail they went off on in Pertwee's time didn't feel at all awkward.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, the Doctor did convince Vicki to dress-up and pretend to be a boy, yes.

[identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
crossdressing is an important trickster god theme. ::nods::

[identity profile] shaggydogstail.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I have embarrassing girl-crush on your brain now. Because yes.

Mythology or fairy-tale works much better for me than religious allegory as well. As far as I can see, the religious symbolism, when it does crop up, is just another story-telling ingredient that gets thrown in with mythology (of various sorts), fairy tales and folk tales, and whatever else tickles TPTB's fancy at the time. LotTL doesn't follow the rules enough to be a proper allegory anyway.

I'll join you in the huffing at the stuff about Martha saving the world to get a bit of Doctor-lovin'. Really.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
And there is a surprising amount of cross-dressing on Doctor Who, yes.

[identity profile] darchildre.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
which is as it should be. 8)

[identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
1. I fucking hate Jesus imagery in media entertainment so much that I can't even pretend to discuss it rationally, so...yes, the stuff you said. He's always been Loki to me as well (and if that makes Martha into Sigyn then fine, that's still better than the alternative).

2. I'm not the least surprised people attribute everything Martha does to Doctor-love--it's the same phenomenon that leads to unrepentant batchipping, everything and anything for Teh Love of Teh All-Important Mans. Blecch.

[identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
And thank you, too, for noting that Martha saved the world twice and not once--everyone always forgets about the end of "The Shakespeare Code." So of course, you'd rationally want to take a character like this and who has killer UST with the Doctor and shove her to the sidelines for aaahhhh forget it you know the drill.

[identity profile] dancesontrains.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I didnt watch much of TW due to a strong desire to murder Owen, but that does sound confusing. Looking at religion in a program like this can go so badly wrong.
OT, I don't think this is anything to do with sci-fi-being-unable-to-handle-deep-themes, because that's a load of cod.
After all,the Star Wars trilogy ( ignoring newies) are some of the most Hindu/Buddhist films ever made, and I love them more for that. But then, I'm biased ^_^
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I use allegory v loosely, yeah.

I be slightly flaily that the main comparisons being drawn from finale are religious ones when, while there are elements, that doesn't fit in with the season or that universe's mythology as a whole.

And it's playing down Martha's role, casting her as acolyte rather than apprentice who's come of age.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
1 - Even though it doesn't work in story context, Martha's Freya, in my head.

2 - I'd mind a lot less if it wasn't used to dismiss what an extraordinary thing she did, but it is, and I find that...irritating.

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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Martha's arc is this:

Here is a person who can only help save half the planet (Smith & Jones), now we shall tell you the story of how she saved the world really easily (tSC), and then we shall show you everything she has to go through in order to be able to save the world under more tricky circumstances, thus demonstrating how Martha Jones > Everyone, 'part from babs.

[identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
1. As you probably saw in that entry of Nos's, I'm entirely serious that Doctor = Loki, Rose = Frigg and Martha = Freya. Doubtless this somehow oppresses every character involved, but hey, I gotta be me. (Also re the Doctor, let us never forget that Loki's real sin in the eyes of the gods was laying bare all their hypocrises for the world to see...shades of old Gallifrey, I say. Crap, this may mean that Romana = Balder. That poor woman has no luck.)

2. Well, they have to dismiss it, otherwise it fatally compromises the Rose > every companion ever equation and we simply can't have that, now can we.
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[identity profile] calapine.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it possibly requires a more subtle touch than RTD's patented anvilliciousness in order to be effective.

[identity profile] violetisblue.livejournal.com 2007-08-23 11:59 pm (UTC)(link)
So, again, I can see where you'd totally want to get rid of a character like that in favor of a shouty mediocrity in a wedding dress okay I'll keep that to myself from now on, what could she possibly add to the show? Especially now that it's all apparently got to be FUN! FUN! FUN! from here on out, huzzah, she said flatly.

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